Sunday, April 28, 2013

Not Been Well so a Week in One Post.

Okay this is going to be a bit of a mixture, mainly because writing 3 short reports seems pointless when I can cover everything in one slightly longer post and trying to not spend too much of my day in front of a computer screen.

Firstly congratulations to Delicious in Warrington who have been granted a license. People were trying to use the Kids Planet Day Nursery as an excuse not to grant a license but fortunately the councillors had the common sense to realise that nursery and club would be open at completely different times. Same old argument, same old reason to disregard it but we will no doubt see it again.

Now in the news Farage of UKIP has been into a Lap Dance club shock horror... And the leader of the most sexually free party is a member of Fawcett. Well the greens were but now guessing that title may end up with UKIP (whod of thunk it). Thanks to eagle eyed commentators over this. This site needs to pick up on everything that is going on and we have limited resources so as a reminder or a pointer to others

So the battle goes on and on, had a discussion with a lady who posts on Mumsnet. She is a neighbour of a dancer and has become much more understanding since talking to her and realising that dancers are human beings with thoughts, desires and minds of their own. Hope the suggestion about religion gave you a starting block to raise discussions.

And here are all the arguments (again) Concise form so hopefully to people who are wondering about what to answer when asked questions.

Clubs cause rape, I read it in a report. That would be the Lilith report and the figures were out of context, not examined in conjunction with population growth and there was no control sample to offer a comparison.

Seen that sexual assaults increase around clubs and it wasn't Lilith. This would be Bristol were 3 of the venues are located in the middle of the night time economy it what the police call a crime impact zone. The council assign no blame to clubs and I have seen figures that show the nightclubs are more likely to cause this type of crime by a magnitude of up to 10 times.

People don't want them. In Prof Hubbard's research on 3% of people said there was no place for them at all.

They shouldn't be near schools or churches. Not many schools operate at night with young children nor many religions hold services late at night. So no one is going to see anything, besides the lay out of the clubs is usually such that a casual glance in from outside would reveal nothing.

How do I explain what goes on to my children? Well what do you tell them about pubs? Adults go there for a drink and enjoyment. People make difficulties for themselves trying to justify their moral judgements.

The dancers are trafficked. No club was raided during Pentameter or Pentameter II the 2 high profile investigations into trafficking.

The dancers do it as they can't do anything else. Actually 87% of dancers have some form of higher education and around one third of dancers are funding their way through university rather than end up with crippling debts.

The dancers are exploited. In the same way that anyone earning a living is exploited, unfortunately to earn money people work and most jobs cause exploitation of some sort. The dancers now have the option though of joining either Equity or the GMB so at least there is representation. Plus the councils issue guidelines that clubs need to follow to look after the dancers.

The strippers are prostitutes grinding on men's laps. This fallacy is one that occurs because of the word lapdance, in the past it was true but now the guidelines say that dancers can't touch the customer and obviously the customer can't touch the dancer so quite how something sexual happens with no contact I am not sure.

Objectification is wrong. I am not going to even try and deny that a level of objectification occurs but we are talking about a process where a man (or woman) views someone as a potential sexual partner. Even though we know that we will not have sex with the person when we look at people we at a subconscious level judge them. Clothes on or off make up on or off it is as natural as breathing. But people are making good money out of of getting everyone wound up over it.

Finally a question that is always asked by people when they run out of arguments and want to turn it personal how would you feel if it was your daughter/wife/mother now I can't answer for others but for me if any member of my family wanted to dance then I would back them 100% to do whatever they wanted. The question is why would people not support members of their family doing what they want? Obviously they don't really care about that person and their own morals are more important than the feelings and desires of a family member.

Edited due to a typo.


  1. I've also been following that Mumsnet thread on lap dancing and Farage. Well it's basically turned into another lap dancing bashing thread with the same old arguments and silly comments from those rotten regulars. I can't believe a certain poster is even trying to justify the Lilith report. It's so obvious she is getting frustrated at losing the argument to the rather excellent poster you refer to.

    I now see another poster is asking 'why men visit these place?' well seeing as whenever a male joins in the debate and reveals they are a customer they go completely hysterical, with a barrage of insults, reporting them to MNHQ and getting them banned. So i guess they will never find out..........

    1. It does seem a desperate attempt to defend Lilith based on the assumption that Magnanti is the hand maiden of the devil (I sort of love that statement). The debate is farcical but I have been getting e-mails asking about one or two points.

      They don't actually want to know why men go in any more than they would want a dancer to tell them why they dance. They just want to close the industry down without worrying about what would happen to everyone in the industry. I am working on the christian extremist story at the moment but think I would like to do a breakdown on the errors in Lilith fully on here, certainly discussing them has highlighted to me what is wrong. And I do like re-watching the Magnanti video.

  2. Looks like that thread has taken a turn for the worse again. What are they waffling on about now? i think from what i can gather is that they now strive for an oppressed nanny state, where if a small vocal minority don't like something it is justification to ban it, regardless of whether it causes harm or not.

    yeah it would be interesting to see the Lilith exposed, i will look forward to seeing that. One thing i don't get is why objectors don't just use the crime stats from Ok it only has about 2 and half years of data but would have thought it was sufficient enough for some analysis.
    Anyway i thought i'd have a play around with this data and look at the 12 months figures for Leamington Spa's nightclubs (hehe let's call it the Ridgely report 2013). The clubs are quite spread out from each other in Leamington and police data is actually recorded using the clubs as points of reference making it fairly defined. I have only considered the antisocial behavior stats and violent crimes (includes sexual)which i think are the main ones that would concern those insomniac residents, who like going for strolls past the clubs late at night. So here is what i found: (All figures are for 12 months)

    1. Rios nightclub - over 25's cheesy disco - antisocial: 36, Violent: 3
    2. Smack nightclub - over 18's/ students - antisocial: 76, Violent: 39
    3. The Assembly - over 14's/18's gig venue - antisocial: 14, violent: 10
    4. Shades Gentleman's club - antisocial: 33, violent: 0

    so zero violent crimes in the vicinity of shades and although the Assembly has less antisocial incidents it is offset with 10 violent crimes which are of greater concern. Then you look at Smack, which is a mainstream dance club and wow! yet i have never heard of anyone wanting to close that down.

    Well if this wasn't interesting enough, i noticed that there was some data recorded for 'Crown Terrace' a small cul-de-sac around the corner from Shades. Such a small cul-de-sac that it only contains one venue - The Shree Krishna Hindu Temple - (the one's taking the council to a judicial review over Shades). So here's the venues data:

    5. Shree Krishna Hindu Temple - antisocial: 126, violent: 6

    Well who'd of thunk it!

    1. John, they waffle at the best of times. However they are now just expressing points of view and considering the discussion was originally based in the feminist section (now back in bloggers) you can hardly expect anything other than a hardened view that is inflexible. The surprise is that the personal insults haven't flown. I have sent though more data to be used.

      Love the Hindu Temple being more antisocial than any two nightclubs and no surprise about Shades, the fact is people spread misinformation without checking how accurate it is and how easy it is to check.

      And I'd of thunk it

    2. yeah at least the mumsnetters have remained civilized this time around. Although they haven't had any blokes on their admitting they go to strip clubs. That's when they really lose the plot and the man hating and insults ensue!(hehe)

      I notice there's another guest blog on there regarding that 'no more page 3 campaign' if you fancy a laugh?:

    3. I try to avoid looking at their threads unless it is about striptease. The vitriol that pours from some of them is so disheartening. The problem being is that feminists that are just seeking equality and the sex positive feminists are shouted down and labelled with all sort of names with the worst one seeming to be you are a man.

      The whole group make fantastic light reading. Remembering that Hubbard's survey found only 3% of the 900+ people surveyed thought there was no place for clubs anywhere I think we can guess they all sit bewailing the fact that their arguments have no value except as a point of view with no empirical evidence to back it up. Still it has been interesting seeing how they debate when faced with facts. The nit picking on how Magnanti pulled the Lilith report apart pointing out issues that arise from how the original report was put together just shows how that Woozle will continue to haunt debates. But I think anyone who read the thread on MN will be much better equipped to debate how stupid Lilith is.


  3. I did a FOI survey 5 or 6 years ago when I asked various Police forces about the strip clubs and how they compared with normal night clubs in terms of call outs. All of them gave numbers which suggested that strip clubs cause 10-20% of the trouble for the police as normal nightlife venues. I submitted this to the parliamentary commmitee looking at new laws, it was acknowledged but nobody took much notice. More recently Manchester gave some numbers for police call outs for a range of venues and it showed that the strip places were not only much better behaved than conventional nightclubs but also places like Starbucks and McDonalds.


    1. Tyke that would only surprise an anti, however they don't care they have fixed attitudes and the truth has no place in their arguments. I have run a few samples on the website comparing areas with striptease only to those who share the area with nightclubs. We know the result but denial has and will continue.


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