Sunday, February 15, 2015

Language of Disgust or Just Language of Hate?

So I have been thinking, something that is dangerous and not recommended as it results in very strange ideas. I am sure there are people out there with a PhD who will laugh and think I am a very misguided individual but I have over the last 3 years or so had people judge me who have never met me, have no idea of my social background, my life or any of the other things that have shaped me. If it wasn't for the fact I have the ego the size of a small moon I would have probably stopped long ago after the first bout of personal attacks. So this is probably going to ramble a bit but I hope people will understand where I am coming from.

So I am male (wooo hooo got a thingy between my legs) and I enjoy seeing women perform striptease. Now before we get to anything else about me I have already been labelled by sections of the radical feminist movement as a rapist, pervert, creepy, loser and w****r. They have no idea about me but it doesn't matter because they are projecting their beliefs and their moral disgust on me as I dare to admit I enjoy seeing the female form naked. Let's face it I am reduced to a few words by a belief system based on a view of the world that has been shaped by religion and the state. If you like the Patriarchy who want women in the home and those of us not born into the wealthiest strata producing good little workers that can be shaped by whatever message they give us. From the dirty old man syndrome to how women who dare use their bodies are wrong and in the case of the religious patriarchy evil.

And isn't it strange that radical feminism that for so long was about sexual freedom and choice has been rolled back into the moral minority slaving for the establishment. The fact someone will project their loathing for people who do not conform to their belief system is exactly like the extremist religious groups. The language the radical feminist use to describe women and men who dare to choose to live outside their belief system is exactly the same as a radical cleric or overtly devout priest would use. And this got me wondering about the language that is used in letters to councils by the handful of protesters. The dancers are gender traitors and those who protest using stigmatising language believing that it will change how self assured young women view themselves.

Professor Phil Hubbard has mentioned in his work how disgust and fear is project on to venues and customers. The constant fear of venues near schools is a projection of a parents fear on to the child, clubs don't tend to be open when schools are and apparently blacked out windows are as scary as overtly sexy windows are? So why do we see the projection of these mental images that some people hold continually rolled out even though the reality is different? Well those who do not like clubs have realised use of language can create sub conscious fears among people even if the reality is different. The scaremongering of Lilith and Insp. Drummond was because people believed something was true. Doesn't matter what the reality is we will have to fight the misconceptions every time. The worst thing is there are people out there who know that the beliefs have no empirical data to back them but will continue to roll these stories out because it does the one thing they need and that is create fear. And the problem I suppose more than anything else is the target audience for the disinformation, being councillors and religious establishments.

So back to me (my ego needs the attention). I could go straight past these moral guardians even though they obviously know everything about me they need to with the labels they use to describe me. Wait someone as obviously evil, disgusting and repugnant as I am suppose to be must be easy to spot in the street. One would assume my personal hygiene is lacking, that I go everywhere in a dirty mac, I look awful so that the only way any woman would go near me is for money and obviously I have a couple of horns on my head. See this is where applying the beliefs goes wrong I mean I hang round with friends for which I guess me circle like a pack of wolves waiting to eat our prey. I am a working class junkie that no doubt is a dealer that uses what I sell to fund my abhorrent lifestyle. I don't rate as a member of the pimp lobby yet according to Bindel but if I work hard I have no doubt I can get in there. And I could go on and on and on and on. Which is where I have the biggest problem of all and that is the fact that reading what these people write I can't separate out the radical feminist from the religious objectors the language and the people have become interchangeable.

Now I am not saying I am perfect but I can't think of anyone who actually really knows me who would use any of the labels and names I have been given over the last 3 years. But every time someone labels me with their loathing from their beliefs I see that as a victory. The fact that people need to create villains shows how little validity the arguments they use have so the constant use of scaremongering and labeling is something we will continue to see. After all people who have no idea of who I really am label me as creepy because I am willing to challenge their preconceived ideas with facts and data. It would be easy to stop blogging and just get on with my life, no one would judge me or label me. I wouldn't be the face of evil but I believe too strongly in the right to choose and free will so every time that a zombie stat rears its ugly head I will blow it up!

TonyN (tonyprince@acdcfan,com) aka the dirty old man

Tuesday, February 10, 2015

An Adventure in No More Page 3 Land

So I have been on the no more page 3 facebook page as it was pointed out that people there were using Lilith (again, thank you John) as part of the argument to draw validity for the position on NMP3 and the closing of clubs. The link to the facebook article is here  although I do have a lot of screen shots of the discussion if the link disappears. Sorry if it appears halfway through the discussion but the usual pat on the back brigade were there sabre rattling. What the piece and the discussions does bring up is some issues that anyone who tries to have a reasonable debate should know before they start.

Firstly there was 3%ers as I call them. Those that were shown in the Kent/Loughborough research that think clubs have no place in society, they don't really care what the rest of the world think they are right and that is an end of it. Then you have the occasional posters who ask questions because they want to understand these will at least try to engage civilly and accept that I don't and can't speak for all men and nor would I ever want to. Then there are some who are willing to actually go read the articles I linked to, and those who asked for links to research that I didn't put in. These realised they might get a bit of stick from others so did not ask for links on the thread for links and it was only 3 of them that pm'd me but I am hoping more will look at it and question the methodology and belief system that operates with some NMP3 campaigners.

As I said I was on there because of Lilith and I was surprised (and in many ways not really surprised) when someone said they had put in Lap Dancing and rape into google and came back with a 2012 article from the telegraph. Strange, I thought I knew of every claim and certainly any that were even remotely thought to be valid. But of course this turned out to be our friend Drummond from Newquay and we all remember how that turned out. Of course when I pointed out that the fact that Drummond was wrong not an apology for not checking sources just a set of replies about how rape has gone down recently because Newquay has become more family orientated. No one actually checked on the dates of the claim and the dates of the FOI from the Newquay Voice. I have no problem that someone used Drummond because of what google threw back but a simple acknowledgement that the particular story they had used was in error would have been civil.

I quoted Leeds University Research, I quoted Kent/Loughborough research, I pointed out that I have over 20 years knowledge of the good the bad and the indifferent. I suggested that they get behind the dancers and go read the ELSC Manifesto and was told I love my facts and figures too much. I guess I might because for all the talk and claim and counter claim the research is as close to Objective as we are going to get in the world. I will admit that I have a subjective point of view and that colours my opinion, it not rocket science or news. Others though will not accept that they are operating on an opinion which has less and less facts behind it each day. Subjective? never how could they be because they are right and any other opinion is totally invalid, lies or half truths because they say so. As I bowed out of the conversation I pointed out that Roz Hardie had gone to a meeting and wasn't strictly accurate with the slides. They implied that there were several interviews with dancers that quotes were taken from when in fact it it was all from a book co-authored by Object which let be honest would be like a book on immigration co-authored by Nigel Farage (this is my new favourite saying).

We will always see people quote Lilith and Drummond because of search engines and "lazy" newspapers not amending or deleting incorrect articles. So keep your eyes out and if anyone spots the miss use of these reports and press releases please point me at them as I really don't mind being the most hated man on No More Page 3 time line or anywhere else.

TonyN (

Friday, February 6, 2015

Southend Let's Go Round Again

TonyN here. So we have had an application for a new venue in Southend so no surprise the 3% that object (according to Prof Phil Hubbard's research only 3% of people interviewed, out of the almost 1,000, felt there was no place for SEVs) had to get involved and we find the Essex Feminist Collective trying to get councillors to vote against the application. Well this isn't news but there is a level of stupidity here that has had me giggling for the last few days. I found out that they intended to have a meeting to "debate" the situation. I only stumbled on this as I noticed things on twitter and so I started asking if the "debate" was going to include dancers. Was actually told everyone was welcome but given the fact that I wasn't able to get the message out earlier and I only found this on the 1st Feb for a meeting on the 4th no surprise that as far as I know only one side and 3 councillors attended. What has surprised me that if the room was pretty full why the only photo I saw had 5 people in it? Or maybe the meeting wasn't as popular as expected? If EFC read this perhaps you could inform us of how many attended?

However I digress I want to show some of the idiocy that surrounds the people who organised the meeting. I had pointed out that I want the dancers to have better work conditions etc, to which the reply was that what EFC want. So when I asked if they would campaign for club so dancers could have more rights of course the argument fell apart there and it was rapid draw the wagons round. So it seems the best way to help dancers is to stop them getting a wider choice of club so the clubs do more to retain dancers. I was happy when I dancer waded in and at that point EFC realised that any further discussion would make their earlier claims fall apart. And if I was a dancer with a friend in EFC perhaps you need to educate them that options for dancers means better conditions. If clubs compete for the best dancers then house fees and associated costs are likely to drop. Or at least their will be less pressure on the dancers.

You will also note the comment I left on the EFC blog which at the time of writing this is still waiting moderation apparently. They sent a letter to one of the other councillors that was the standard template letter that Object wrote so far back people thought Lilith was valid. But it seems that no one can be bothered to up date the letter to include the changes that have occurred and still think that prostitution in South Florida is entirely comparable to striptease in England and Wales. So although this is probably the billionth time I have gone through the facts perhaps councillors in Southend need to read a different perspective.

1. Clubs are Associated with Trafficking
This is a fallacy and no club in England and Wales was targeted by Pentameter I or II. There are no facts to back any claim associated with this claim that I have ever read and I have read a lot.

2. Clubs are fronts for Prostitution
When you consider the cost of licenses for SEV and the revenue they generate do you really think any club would be stupid enough to run the risk? No claims can ever be made for individuals but certain the concept that this is wide spread is another fallacy.

3. The majority of people are against SEVs
Not true at all, a recent study by Kent and Loughborough Universities showed only 3% of people feel there is no place for SEVs.

4. SEVs create No Go Areas
This is something that people may believe if they know where clubs are. The Kent/Loughborough research showed that people will just walk past SEVs without blinking an eye unless they are deliberately pointed out. The use of discreet signage is suggested at this point by both the report and myself.

5. Clubs Increase Rape and Sexual Violence
Unfortunately this line has been rolled out since the first publication of the Lilith report and no matter how many times it is debunked and figures show the reverse is in fact the case for Camden and Newquay it doesn't stop people quoting the same disproved "evidence". This blog has ripped Lilith apart here!

6. Clubs are Exploitative
Tell me any work that isn't other than Politics? Seriously? This is more exploitative than Zero hour contracts at McDonalds? Considering the 2009 research by Leeds University that the majority of dancers are happy with their work I find it strange people are so happy. These are not uneducated women as 87% of dancers have some form of higher education (Leeds University 2009). So do people really think intelligent women would stay in a job they didn't enjoy?

7. All Dancers are working for their habit
Whilst I am certain there are dancers that use this is no more prevalent than other industries. Doctors have been known to use drugs, not seeing anyone clamour to close hospitals (other than some tory politicians). Clubs risk their license if there are drugs found on the premises so do people really believe that there are lines of coke everywhere? There is a terrible belief system that lives in some peoples heads.

I would suggest councillors go read the research from Leeds and the Kent/Loughborough project. There is so much more that could be said both good and the issues that councils could help to address like changing rooms, standardising of fines rather than whims but whilst people are trying to close clubs the existing clubs will be in a much stronger position with the dancers.

If any coucillor wants more info or specifics that I may have on the blog please contact me

TonyN (

Tuesday, February 3, 2015

What If? Crazy but What If

So this goes out especially to Kate Smurthwaite who blocked me on twitter, she apparently works with survivors of the sex industry but I have spent a long time looking through her Twitter time line and her business website and I must be going blind or something as I can't see anything. So if anyone could point me to the bit I have missed I would really love to she who she has worked with and hear their experiences. This all started off after Dr Brooke Magnanti pointed out that Lilith was not empirical data, now Kate hadn't said anything directly but was busy with her campaign buddies Object outside Spearmint Rhino in Camden so seems a legit thing to point her at. So rather than empirical data today I want to explore a what if scenario. Based on figures from the daily mirror that came out recently that linked to violent behaviour and porn (see article and graph here). This works if your belief system is that there is a link between porn and SEVs with sexual violence.

So we see a decrease in violent crime which would include sexual violence such as rape as the growth of the internet and gaming start and take hold. Now we also know something that fits that time line and that is the increase in SEVs. So why am I so interested in this you may ask? Well obviously something must have sparked my interest and that was the outcry about the increase in Rape last year and it really set me thinking about what has been happening in the last year that could (please note I said could it is only my thoughts) have had such a negative impact that rape has risen back to 2003 figures when it had been falling before hand. In the last year or two what has been changed in the environment that could have such a profound effect? Well we have seen the closure of SEVs all over the Country and it does seem a little coincidental that when clubs close rape goes up. If you extend this to porn you would think the application of filters being part of the reason rape increases

Could we be seeing the closure of what are in fact a pressure valve for sexual tension which dissipate relatively harmlessly inside clubs. Dancers are often seen by those associated with the industry as almost like social workers who engage with guys on an equal footing based on what we are prepared to spend. Doesn't matter if you are ugly or disabled they don't objectify their customers beyond being a walking cash point. We know this and accept it. Add into this the club etiquette and you have an environment that educates guys to respect women, if we don't the dancers can easily have a guy kicked out. Not saying every guy is an angel or that we learn this in one visit but clubs often are a fantastic way to teach guys that dancers are more than just body parts. There are guys that will never learn, there are the guys who want to be in control but their control only lasts as long as their wallet which is why I suspect a lot of guys who have control issues will want to find other ways of controlling women.

Now I can't prove this but when you consider the really figures over an extended period for Camden saw rape drop and that the same applies to Newquay and also when Wandsworth saw the Chelsea Reach close rape went up you ask questions. Add to this a downturn in the number of clubs at the same time as an increase in rape you brain has to go just how coincidental is it? Could it be that the campaigns by radical feminists are in fact part of the reason rape has increased? No it can't be can it? I mean just because the figures seem to say that I have no empirical proof and I would never claims causal effect without hard facts but what if?

This is a pretty silly statement that I could never prove but then I have seen claims by radical feminists that are loopier with less data to back them up being used as absolute proof. What feminists should be doing is working with dancers to better working conditions but they want to help free choice by taking it away. The above only really make sense if you operate on the belief system that certain sections of radical feminism seem to operate on. At this point I would suggest the real reason for a 31% increase in rape was cold cases being re-examined and the backlash from Yewtree as factors.

TonyN (