So this goes out especially to Kate Smurthwaite who blocked me on twitter, she apparently works with survivors of the sex industry but I have spent a long time looking through her Twitter time line and her business website and I must be going blind or something as I can't see anything. So if anyone could point me to the bit I have missed I would really love to she who she has worked with and hear their experiences. This all started off after Dr Brooke Magnanti pointed out that Lilith was not empirical data, now Kate hadn't said anything directly but was busy with her campaign buddies Object outside Spearmint Rhino in Camden so seems a legit thing to point her at. So rather than empirical data today I want to explore a what if scenario. Based on figures from the daily mirror that came out recently that linked to violent behaviour and porn (see article and graph here). This works if your belief system is that there is a link between porn and SEVs with sexual violence.
So we see a decrease in violent crime which would include sexual violence such as rape as the growth of the internet and gaming start and take hold. Now we also know something that fits that time line and that is the increase in SEVs. So why am I so interested in this you may ask? Well obviously something must have sparked my interest and that was the outcry about the increase in Rape last year and it really set me thinking about what has been happening in the last year that could (please note I said could it is only my thoughts) have had such a negative impact that rape has risen back to 2003 figures when it had been falling before hand. In the last year or two what has been changed in the environment that could have such a profound effect? Well we have seen the closure of SEVs all over the Country and it does seem a little coincidental that when clubs close rape goes up. If you extend this to porn you would think the application of filters being part of the reason rape increases
Could we be seeing the closure of what are in fact a pressure valve for sexual tension which dissipate relatively harmlessly inside clubs. Dancers are often seen by those associated with the industry as almost like social workers who engage with guys on an equal footing based on what we are prepared to spend. Doesn't matter if you are ugly or disabled they don't objectify their customers beyond being a walking cash point. We know this and accept it. Add into this the club etiquette and you have an environment that educates guys to respect women, if we don't the dancers can easily have a guy kicked out. Not saying every guy is an angel or that we learn this in one visit but clubs often are a fantastic way to teach guys that dancers are more than just body parts. There are guys that will never learn, there are the guys who want to be in control but their control only lasts as long as their wallet which is why I suspect a lot of guys who have control issues will want to find other ways of controlling women.
Now I can't prove this but when you consider the really figures over an extended period for Camden saw rape drop and that the same applies to Newquay and also when Wandsworth saw the Chelsea Reach close rape went up you ask questions. Add to this a downturn in the number of clubs at the same time as an increase in rape you brain has to go just how coincidental is it? Could it be that the campaigns by radical feminists are in fact part of the reason rape has increased? No it can't be can it? I mean just because the figures seem to say that I have no empirical proof and I would never claims causal effect without hard facts but what if?
This is a pretty silly statement that I could never prove but then I have seen claims by radical feminists that are loopier with less data to back them up being used as absolute proof. What feminists should be doing is working with dancers to better working conditions but they want to help free choice by taking it away. The above only really make sense if you operate on the belief system that certain sections of radical feminism seem to operate on. At this point I would suggest the real reason for a 31% increase in rape was cold cases being re-examined and the backlash from Yewtree as factors.
TonyN (tonyprince@acdcfan.com)
I was a having a similar debate about this too, where people were trying make out there was a link between porn consumption and sex crime. Where basically it appears the anti porn lobby can only rely on so called anecdotal evidence and spurious claims. From that Daily Mirror link, the anti porn lobby states 'porn-loving men were often violent.' Well when we consider that the vast majority of men consume porn (well somebody has go to account for all those web traffic stats!) she is implying that there are a lot of violent men out there, which is absolute nonsense. Again this goes back to the usual tactic used by the anti lobby of assuming lowest common denominator of men, just as they do when they wheel out objectification theory. Which is basically saying 'men can't be trusted with this stuff it will warp their minds and make them see women as objects'
ReplyDeleteThen further on in that article they go and make the ridiculous claim that 'Today's men are part of a "guinea pig generation" for porn exposure', she warned, and the consequences could be dire.'
Well I am sorry but porn didn't suddenly get invented with the popularity of the internet. Hardcore porn has been readily available in Europe for many decades, (since the 60's I do believe?) and it used to do the rounds in the school playground and end up in hedges too. The internet itself began to rise in popularity from around the mid 90's. So we already have a generation who have been exposed to it. Yet where is the evidence that this generation who will now be 20 something's are corrupted and warped? I am really not seeing this at all.
On a slightly different note i have spent a fair amount of time debating with NMP3 campaigners following the Sun's rather amusing stunt the other week. Their argument has always been one of it being out of context in a newspaper and that 'hey we are not prudes, we have no objection to nude modelling, porn, lap dancing clubs etc' We don't want to ban anything, blah blah..'
ReplyDeleteMy support for page 3 has always been about freedom of expression and censorship creep. Where I have been arguing for years that the banning of page 3 would be the thin end of the wedge. However having delved further into their Facebook page they are also friends with Object and Object post a number of their links on their Facebook page too. Anyway having checked out NMP3's Facebook recently it appears that my suspicions were true, where they have started attacking erotic art,and a number of their commentators have started attacking lap dancing clubs too. One white knight stated the following:
'The end of page 3 should be the beginning, lap dancing is evil, it causes long-term deep psychological problems, there is evidence that domestic violence increases in areas where they open, and no matter what the men who use them say publicly, when they think they are sat with like minded men, the language leaves you in no doubt that they have no respect whatsoever for the girls, I may look the same as them, but I am not one of them, they are dinosaurs, but I have plenty of friends that think like me'
oh no here we go again! it's Lilith!
There was no denouncement from NMP3 and this particular poster got a lot of likes and praise.
he continues:
'no woman that goes into lap dancing is free, the choice is based on false information, "the clamours lifestyle" and "big money fast" I have spent many hours interviewing former and current lap dancers, they reality for the vast majority is a job that you have to get drunk and take drugs to do, every single one is propositioned every night, and each dance is only £15, plus any tip, but on a Tuesday night in a depressed northern town tips are rare, they have to pay the club owner a fee to work and often make a loss, but all of that is immaterial compared to the psychological damage'
Unfortunately I can no longer post on their page as they have (surprise surprise) banned me, at the point at where I started challenging them hard with the facts. Here's the particular thread from where those quotes were taken: https://www.facebook.com/NoMorePage3/posts/890117831051398
Popped up on their time line let's see how long before I get banned? No surprise that NMP3 and Object are linked both are linked to UK Feminista which believes women should be able to wear and do what they want so long as they don't earn money from it. The arguments will never be backed by data but making it up is standard practice, Love the fact they assume dancers don't earn money. How many would stay working if they weren't earning?
DeleteI actually recognised some faces from NMP3 amongst Object Now's 'dirty dozen' picketing Spearmint Rhino back in November. And yes, Kate Smurthwaite was there too (being interviewed, amongst other things). Radfem circlejerk time!
DeleteI find the rad fem hug in something that goes from amusing to oh god not again. The graun journalists feed into feminista who then sit over NMP3 and Object. I doubt there are more than 20 truly active campaigners the rest are keyboard warriors like me.
DeleteI daresay that the enthusiasm of most of their ordinary members has dropped off since the promise of easy victories started to become a distant memory. Seriously, how many striptease venues have been closed down successfully as a result of the new voluntary SEV regulations introduced under the Police and Crime Act 2009? And look easily both they and the Guardian were wrong-footed recently by News Corporation about Page 3!
DeleteObject Now has had a crisis of credibility ever since damaging revelations were made about both them and the Lilith report on this blog three years ago, and their were dropped by the Guardian in favour of the Everyday Sexism Project [sic]. They'd imagined that the proposed 'nil' policy in Tower Hamlets would be the tipping point for their campaign against strip clubs...and we all know how that long, drawn-out battle went for them.
I have noticed their believers are now haunting NMP3. But I am having great fun with their lack of knowledge.
DeleteThey go for whatever looks like low-hanging fruit, in the hope that they can regroup to tackle their other objectives once everyone's forgotten that their 'supporting evidence' is nothing of the sort. The thing is though, some of us have long memories (and love to remind others too), and the evidence of their failures and disinformation campaigns remains out there on the web to trip them up!
DeleteSome great comments on the NMP3 Facebook page Tony. I think the main reasons why nightclubs have worse crime stats than strip clubs is due to alcohol, drugs and persons being on the pull. This can create a competitive and aggressive environment, where there can be misunderstandings, jealousy, cheating etc. Then we have people dancing the night away on recreational drugs which can also cause aggression/ violence. The strip club by contrast is a chilled out experience, where binge drinking isn't generally the done thing, people are sat chatting, watching the performances and the music is normally quieter and more laid back. However I will add that as someone in their late 30's I have not been to any mainstream nightclubs for a very long time but i can't imagine they have changed a great deal over the years. These days me and my friends are more into live music venues and real ale pubs. Where on special occasions we will visit a strip club.
DeleteThanks John seems one or two of the posters are at least are at least respectful others not so much. I would agree the environment at the clubs is much more laid back. And as someone over 45 it has been a really long time since I been clubbing. The nightclub scene has too much that could go horribly wrong and the loading of drinking before going out has made the nightclub somewhere I would not want to be.
DeleteWell, my occasional nights out in Shoreditch at the weekend have confirmed for me that the strip pubs in the area are generally more civilised places than the hipster bars which attract the stag and hen parties from Essex.
DeleteAnd the campaign to criminalise sex worker clients failed back in November, which must have been a crushing blow.
ReplyDeleteHowever, they are still out there, ready to push misinformation to a willing press, so keep on your guard.
I am quite happy to engage these people who believe that the facts are in their favour. The arguments fall apart quickly and at best they use anecdotal evidence that is usually third hand.
Delete"However, they are still out there, ready to push misinformation to a willing press, so keep on your guard."
DeleteBut in the meantime, the organised opposition to their campaigns grows, and new evidence which contradicts their spurious claims emerges...