So I have been on the no more page 3 facebook page as it was pointed out that people there were using Lilith (again, thank you John) as part of the argument to draw validity for the position on NMP3 and the closing of clubs. The link to the facebook article is here although I do have a lot of screen shots of the discussion if the link disappears. Sorry if it appears halfway through the discussion but the usual pat on the back brigade were there sabre rattling. What the piece and the discussions does bring up is some issues that anyone who tries to have a reasonable debate should know before they start.
Firstly there was 3%ers as I call them. Those that were shown in the Kent/Loughborough research that think clubs have no place in society, they don't really care what the rest of the world think they are right and that is an end of it. Then you have the occasional posters who ask questions because they want to understand these will at least try to engage civilly and accept that I don't and can't speak for all men and nor would I ever want to. Then there are some who are willing to actually go read the articles I linked to, and those who asked for links to research that I didn't put in. These realised they might get a bit of stick from others so did not ask for links on the thread for links and it was only 3 of them that pm'd me but I am hoping more will look at it and question the methodology and belief system that operates with some NMP3 campaigners.
As I said I was on there because of Lilith and I was surprised (and in many ways not really surprised) when someone said they had put in Lap Dancing and rape into google and came back with a 2012 article from the telegraph. Strange, I thought I knew of every claim and certainly any that were even remotely thought to be valid. But of course this turned out to be our friend Drummond from Newquay and we all remember how that turned out. Of course when I pointed out that the fact that Drummond was wrong not an apology for not checking sources just a set of replies about how rape has gone down recently because Newquay has become more family orientated. No one actually checked on the dates of the claim and the dates of the FOI from the Newquay Voice. I have no problem that someone used Drummond because of what google threw back but a simple acknowledgement that the particular story they had used was in error would have been civil.
I quoted Leeds University Research, I quoted Kent/Loughborough research, I pointed out that I have over 20 years knowledge of the good the bad and the indifferent. I suggested that they get behind the dancers and go read the ELSC Manifesto and was told I love my facts and figures too much. I guess I might because for all the talk and claim and counter claim the research is as close to Objective as we are going to get in the world. I will admit that I have a subjective point of view and that colours my opinion, it not rocket science or news. Others though will not accept that they are operating on an opinion which has less and less facts behind it each day. Subjective? never how could they be because they are right and any other opinion is totally invalid, lies or half truths because they say so. As I bowed out of the conversation I pointed out that Roz Hardie had gone to a meeting and wasn't strictly accurate with the slides. They implied that there were several interviews with dancers that quotes were taken from when in fact it it was all from a book co-authored by Object which let be honest would be like a book on immigration co-authored by Nigel Farage (this is my new favourite saying).
We will always see people quote Lilith and Drummond because of search engines and "lazy" newspapers not amending or deleting incorrect articles. So keep your eyes out and if anyone spots the miss use of these reports and press releases please point me at them as I really don't mind being the most hated man on No More Page 3 time line or anywhere else.
TonyN (tonyprince@acdcfan.com)
Radfem circlejerk time!!!
ReplyDeleteThere were one or two that were not completely blinkered but you did feel they become concerned by the personal attacks. At least we can add creepy to the list of what they think of me.
DeleteThis comment on that Facebook thread is a classic example of the groundless smears and other false claims spread by the pro-censorship, anti-civil liberties brigade:
Delete"The end of page 3 should be the beginning, lap dancing is evil, it causes long-term deep psychological problems, there is evidence that domestic violence increases in areas where they open, and no matter what the men who use them say publicly, when they think they are sat with like minded men, the language leaves you in no doubt that they have no respect whatsoever for the girls, I may look the same as them, but I am not one of them, they are dinosaurs, but I have plenty of friends that think like me."
Methinks the male 'feminist' responsible for this evidence-free tripe doth protest too much!
It is the typical smear with disgust and stigmatise approach to passing moral judgments. Pointing them at facts or figures or even worse actual research is the work of the devil. They are the ones that won't change no matter what.
DeleteYes, there is something quasi-religious about such an attitude: anything which clashes with their ideological orthodoxy is regarded as heresy, regardless of the facts of the matter. They inhabit a world turned upside-down, in which groundless smears against opponents are somehow moral, but reasoned arguments, established facts and verified data are 'evil'.
DeleteI have actually been toying with writing about this. Think I will have to explore this a little at some point.
DeleteI thought I recognised some familiar faces from No More Page 3 (along with Kate Smurthwaite) on Object Now's tiny, half-hearted demonstration outside Spearmint Rhino back in November. There appears to be a small radfem rent-a-mob (it could hardly be large, could it?) doing the rounds of various related causes...
ReplyDeleteI note too from social media that Roz Hardie is pretty sore about Spearmint Rhino getting its SEV Licence renewed by Camden Council recently, despite there being no valid grounds for refusal.
DeleteRoz is happy with her slides even if they are a little inaccurate and the fact that there was no photo of the audience from Essex does suggest it is really a very small crowd who just shout a lot,
DeleteRoz isn't foolish enough to quote Lilith as fact publicly herself, but has she put her latest allies in the Essex Feminist Collective straight about it?
DeleteNo but the book seems to be quoted as a few different interviews. Roz is relatively tame but we can always rely on the supporters to mess things up.
DeleteRoz is "relatively tame" as you put it, because she worked in local government for many years in the area of Equal Opportunities, and therefore will have a broad understanding of many ('though I suspect not all, to judge by some social media statements) of the legal aspects of her work (such as it is) for Object Now. Some of the 10W bulbs which support the organisation, on the other hand, either don't understand such terms as 'slander', 'libel' and 'defamation of character', or imagine that they inhabit some kind of parallel universe where they are immune from the possible legal consequences of their ill-judged actions.
DeleteWell Tony you certainly yielded an awful lot of replies on NMP3. Again some brilliant responses and fair play to you for staying calm and giving reasoned responses despite a number of harsh and unjustified personal attacks. It's interesting to see NMP3's Facebook giving credit to Object and Object offering themselves as the new option while NMP3 takes a break https://www.facebook.com/NoMorePage3/posts/896012440461937
ReplyDeleteWhilst there were a majority of childish behaviour one or two at least took notice. Love that object are claiming they are at the front of one billion rising when they are a tiny group with no money trying desperately to stay relevant. If I was the Sun though I would wait till NMP3 had been down a week and then come back.
DeleteThe personal insults and childish abuse are par for the course when dealing with people suffering from severe cases of cognitive dissonance; when they have their chimp tricks pointed out to them in no uncertain terms, and their noses rubbed in the dirt they've just dished, they usually shut up and disappear.
DeleteAs for Object Now, it's a Walter Mitty organisation looking to jump on any sex-negative or misandrist 'feminist' bandwagon, in order to make itself look relevant and popular; at look at the historical content of its official Twitter feed gives the game away.